FAQ

Descriptions of Types of Posts

Ends-Corners-Line-Blank-Gate Posts

It is important to understand the differences in end, corner, line and gate posts. With some styles of fence it makes no difference, but on other styles, it is a world of difference.

In the case of some ornamental aluminum fences, vinyl fence and wood split rail, the posts have pre-routed holes to accept rails from the fence sections. The position of the holes will determine the use of the post.

For these styles the following definitions and descriptions are true.

End Post: any post that ends a line of fence. A gate terminates a line for this purpose. The fence may continue on the other side of a gate and that post would also be an end post. An end post has holes on one side of the post only for rails to slide into. Only one section of fence is connected to that post. An end post can also be a gate post.

Line Post: any intermediate post that has fence connected to two opposite sides forming a straight line (180 degrees). These posts have holes on two sides of the post, opposite each other. An easy way to figure the quantity of line posts required on a line of fence is to figure the total sections in the line and subtract one. That is why it is necessary to know measurements on both sides of a gate. the gate breaks the total line into two distinctly different lines for these purposes. In some styles of fence, such as split rail, a line post may have holes bored completely through the post so rails can butt to each other, or overlap. Angles close to 180 degrees require the use of line posts. The holes may need widened to allow the rails to slide in, depending on the style of fence.

Corner Posts: any post that is to be used on a 90 degree corner to join two lines of fence. The holes are on two sides adjacent to each other. Corner posts can be used for odd angles where the angle is closer is between 45 and 90 degrees. An angle of 45 degrees may require a corner or line post, depending on style and preference.

Blank Post: a post with no holes. Commonly these are used as a gate post where no fence is to be attached to the post. Therefore a gate post can be a blank post. Your mail box post is a blank post (most likely). Avoid using blank posts as hinge posts. The fact that a fence is attached to the gate post makes it stronger and a lot of sagging gate problems can be traced to leaning blank posts.

Gate Post: a post that is used to latch or hinge a gate. A gate post can be a blank, end, line or corner post depending on how and where sections of fence also must be attached to the post. Every gate has two gate posts, unless another structure is used to latch or hinge the gate from. Often times a gate post is a larger size than the others and a heavier wall thickness, if applicable. This is necessary to hold the weight of the gate.

Hinge Post: a gate post that the gate is hinged on. A double swing gate would have two hinge posts. A single swing gate has one hinge post. Large gates may require a larger hinge post to support the weight of the gate.

Latch Post: a gate post that a gate latches to. A double gate has no latch posts and a single swing gate has one. Most of the time the latch post is the same size as the hinge post for appearance sake, but it does not have to be. A latch post can be an end, line, corner or blank post.

This may not be the final word on definitions of these types of posts, because every manufacturer and installer may have a different description or different terminology, but it may help to clarify the differences. It will increase your odds of getting the correct response by asking for the proper type, instead of asking, "How much are your posts?". Also you will understand that you do not want holes in your gate post that goes next to the garage (that one should be a blank post).

Raking and Stair Stepping Panels

When the grade of the property follows a slope a decision must be made on the method of installation. It will affect the type of posts that need to be ordered, if they are pre-routed to accept rails.

A line post has pre-routed holes on two sides opposite each other and the holes line up with each other so panels can be installed level to each other. On level ground this is fine. If panels are to be "raked", these posts will work also. "Raking" is shifting the panel out of square as in the following illustration.


There is a limit that some panels can be raked. With ornamental aluminum the limit is 12" over a 6' wide panel in most cases. Certain styles may rake more or less than this amount. Some styles can not be raked at all. This may be the preferred method in order to keep a uniform small space under the fence, so the family pet can't get out. If the grade is steeper than that or the style can not be raked, "Stair Stepping" is necessary.


In this case, order end posts instead of line posts, because the second set of routed holes must be higher or lower than the first set in each post. Since it is tricky to estimate the amount of drop or rise, it is best to field route the second set of holes to the desired offset. Each panel could be slightly different for a custom fit.

The same principle may apply to a corner post, if a "stair step" must be made at the corner. Order an end post for that corner also.

This demonstration is another reason why ordering your fence from Hoover Fence is a wise choice. How many other pitfalls are awaiting you. We provide online and offline assistance by toll free telephone, fax or email!

All the time and with shipping incentives, your fence order could ship for free anywhere in the Continental USA. (different manufacturer's have different shipping incentives, see your particular style for more information)

Memo: Mounting Jerith Residential Gates To Columns Or Walls Applicable Products:

Ornamental aluminum residential walk gates, Jerith only. Since we use Jerith styles to represent many manufacturers, it does not apply in all cases.

The standard walk gates when used with standard Jerith gate posts fit an opening size equal to the size of the gate listed in the catalog. In other words, if the gate size on the price sheet is 36" wide, that would be the gate opening size between the inside to inside measurement of the posts. However, when mounting to walls or columns this is not true.

For column mounting, figure 1" extra for the gate opening size. A 36" gate would require 37" between columns.. The reason is that the latch catch (striker) must be mounted on the inside face of the column. A stringer is provided by Jerith to mount the catch on. The stringer is first attached to the column and the catch is attached to the stringer.

This does not apply to double swing gates made by Jerith. The latch and catch are in the center of the two gates and no striker is required. Also beware that industrial and estate gates are different.

Updated 05/31/06

Styles #9, 10, 18 and any others with top hoops or circles in the design have definite restrictions on cutting sections down to fit odd spaces or between columns. Naturally, you would want to avoid cutting the hoop or a circle in half to make a section fit. Sometimes this can not be avoided.

Since it can be tricky for us to plan your project so closely as to advise you on how far apart to space columns, it is highly recommended that you purchase the fence first and build your columns to fit the fence. We do not sell or make custom spaced pickets with custom hoops or circles.

Another reason spacing can be critical is the fact that the sections are made to slide into the holes on the posts. This requires a little extra length on the end of the rails, which before installation creates a larger space at the last pickets compared to the spacing in between the rest of the pickets. This is true of all ornamental aluminum fences, regardless of style.

When mounting sections on walls and columns, it desirable to cut the last 1" or so off the end of all section rails before mounting to keep the picket spacing uniform. In reality, most jobs are set up in such a way to err on the side of cutting too much off the sections. The reason is that the sections look better with the last picket spacing being smaller rather than larger than the rest of the picket spacing. It depends on how picky you prefer to be. All the more reason for ordering your fence before you build your columns.

We use many manufacturers. Each manufacturer uses different width panels, although most are about 6' wide. The slight difference between manufacturers can foul up a job, if you call us for spacing and then later switch styles when ordering. You must communicate very carefully with us to avoid that sort of problem. Don't expect us to remember the details of your job. If it is not in writing, we won't remember. There are many people who work on your order.

Gates can require an extra picket or two, which will break the consistency of the pattern. For example, a 3' wide style #9 gate (Strictly a Jerith style) has 7 pickets in it. The style requires 3 pickets per repeated pattern. The two outside ones accept the hoop and the center one of the three takes a finial. With 7 pickets in the gate, one extra picket must be in the center to keep the gate symetrical. This picket would require a finial. The result is that the gate has two hoops and 3 pickets that require finials. If this sort of detail is critical to you, a custom gate would have to be made. The cost of this particular gate would double.

Applicable Products: All Styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Every style can be different. We use many different manufacturers and widths can vary between styles even among the same manufacturer. Although generally section widths are 6' wide.

The actual width of a section is usually expressed as the installed width, center to center on the posts. In cases where you are mounting to a wall or column, the installed section width for that section will be less than the rest, because the end rails are slightly longer to slide inside a post. This excess normally is cut off to make the picket widths the same throughout.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All Styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Yes, you can. There are special fittings that get bolted to the column and then the section rail rests in the fitting. The rail is then screwed into the fitting. One fitting is required per rail. Sections can have 2 to 4 rails, depending on height and style.

Every manufacturer uses a different shape of fitting, the rail shapes vary among manufacturers. The names of the fittings also vary among manufacturers. Common names are "rail ends", "wall mount fittings" or "wall brackets". Most fencers would know what you mean regardless of its title.

If you choose to use a post, you can. You can concrete it into the ground like the rest of the posts or you can cut the bottom off and bolt it to the wall or column. One such application for using posts is to mount a gate between the columns. Most manufacturers supply hinges and latches made to mount to their posts. Attempting to use that hardware to mount to columns is difficult, if not impossible. Special attention must be made by you and us to coordinate direct column mounting of gates.

Updated 05/31/06

Descriptions of Types of Posts

Ends-Corners-Line-Blank-Gate Posts

It is important to understand the differences in end, corner, line and gate posts. With some styles of fence it makes no difference, but on other styles, it is a world of difference.

In the case of some ornamental aluminum fences, vinyl fence and wood split rail, the posts have pre-routed holes to accept rails from the fence sections. The position of the holes will determine the use of the post.

For these styles the following definitions and descriptions are true.

End Post: any post that ends a line of fence. A gate terminates a line for this purpose. The fence may continue on the other side of a gate and that post would also be an end post. An end post has holes on one side of the post only for rails to slide into. Only one section of fence is connected to that post. An end post can also be a gate post.

Line Post: any intermediate post that has fence connected to two opposite sides forming a straight line (180 degrees). These posts have holes on two sides of the post, opposite each other. An easy way to figure the quantity of line posts required on a line of fence is to figure the total sections in the line and subtract one. That is why it is necessary to know measurements on both sides of a gate. the gate breaks the total line into two distinctly different lines for these purposes. In some styles of fence, such as split rail, a line post may have holes bored completely through the post so rails can butt to each other, or overlap. Angles close to 180 degrees require the use of line posts. The holes may need widened to allow the rails to slide in, depending on the style of fence.

Corner Posts: any post that is to be used on a 90 degree corner to join two lines of fence. The holes are on two sides adjacent to each other. Corner posts can be used for odd angles where the angle is closer is between 45 and 90 degrees. An angle of 45 degrees may require a corner or line post, depending on style and preference.

Blank Post: a post with no holes. Commonly these are used as a gate post where no fence is to be attached to the post. Therefore a gate post can be a blank post. Your mail box post is a blank post (most likely). Avoid using blank posts as hinge posts. The fact that a fence is attached to the gate post makes it stronger and a lot of sagging gate problems can be traced to leaning blank posts.

Gate Post: a post that is used to latch or hinge a gate. A gate post can be a blank, end, line or corner post depending on how and where sections of fence also must be attached to the post. Every gate has two gate posts, unless another structure is used to latch or hinge the gate from. Often times a gate post is a larger size than the others and a heavier wall thickness, if applicable. This is necessary to hold the weight of the gate.

Hinge Post: a gate post that the gate is hinged on. A double swing gate would have two hinge posts. A single swing gate has one hinge post. Large gates may require a larger hinge post to support the weight of the gate.

Latch Post: a gate post that a gate latches to. A double gate has no latch posts and a single swing gate has one. Most of the time the latch post is the same size as the hinge post for appearance sake, but it does not have to be. A latch post can be an end, line, corner or blank post.

This may not be the final word on definitions of these types of posts, because every manufacturer and installer may have a different description or different terminology, but it may help to clarify the differences. It will increase your odds of getting the correct response by asking for the proper type, instead of asking, "How much are your posts?". Also you will understand that you do not want holes in your gate post that goes next to the garage (that one should be a blank post).

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: First of all, we carry more than one brand of ornamental aluminum fence. Our preferred brands are Jerith and Ideal. Both offer black, white, and bronze as standard colors. Ideal also offers green. Gold is also an option for finials, ball caps, and scrolls.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Absolutely not! The fences are designed to be used as fence only. They have not been tested to be used as railing and therefore not warranted for that use. If your deck is at ground level, consider installing the fence next to it in dirt. Under no circumstances should these fences be used for decks or upper story railings. Here is the Aluminum Railing made specifically for this purpose.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Line posts are not included with the sections. Items are sold separately so that you only need to order the parts you need for a particular job. Posts are also routed (see this page for more details) depending on their use. End posts are routed on one side only to terminate or begin a length of fence. Line posts are routed on opposite sides and are used as intermediate posts. Corner posts are routed on adjacent sides for a 90 degree or there about turn.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Yes, a standard flat post cap is included with all posts. You may substitute a ball cap at an additional cost.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Yes, almost all styles are shipped assembled. Certain styles require finials and loops to be installed in the field. For orders with just a few sections, the fence may be shipped unassembled to save on shipping costs. Unassembled sections can be shipped UPS instead of by Common Carrier.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: For most fence styles, the fence height shown is the actual length of the pickets. Posts extend an inch or so above the pickets. For styles without pickets above the top rail, the height is usually measured to the top of the upper rail. Installing your posts in the ground at different depths will alter the fence height.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: For Jerith Alumnum Fences:
For residential grade fences, the spacing is 72-1/2" center to center of the posts. For style #7 (Ovation) and commercial Regency styles post spacing is 72" center to center. For industrial grade fences, post spacing is 71-1/2".

For Ideal Alumnum Fences:
For residential grade fences and the Alamo style, the post spacing is 72" on center.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Yes, self-closing hinges and self-closing latches are included with all manufacturer's gates. The sections also come with the stainless steel screws for attaching to the posts. If column mounting or mounting to another type of post other than the standard aluminum posts, please specify this when ordering. Some times this affects the type of gate hinge, latch, or other hardware that is included.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Jerith residential and Regency gates are available in 3', 4', 5', and 6' widths. These gates may be doubled to make up to a 12' wide double gate. Industrial gates are available much wider, up to 15' wide for a single gate. Jerith accent gates are available in 3', 4', and 5' widths.

Ideal residential gates are also available in 3', 4', 5', and 6' widths. They can be doubled to make up to a 12' wide double gate also. Ideal arched walk gates are available in 3', 4', 5', and 6' widths.

Updated 05/31/06

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Installation tips

General Gate Information:
Choosing the Size of Gate for Your Fence Project:

In general, gate widths should be kept to a minimum. Regardless of if you are shopping for a gate for a small backyard fence or a commercial facility, choose a gate size based on its use. For residential use, you will need to consider and possibly check the measurements on the following:

Lawn Care Maintenance Equipment and Pedestrian Gates: Typically 3' wide gates are sufficient for push mowers; riding lawnmowers usually require 4-5' wide openings. Wheelbarrows can require a 4' wide opening. Always measure these items and any others you want to push, pull, and carry through the gates. Also keep in mind doors in most houses are only 36" wide. All sorts of large cumbersome items can fit through these openings.

Driveway Gates and Vehicle Access Gates: Consider that most highways are only approx. 10' wide. People have no trouble driving 65 MPH+ on a 10' wide road. Most driveway gates are 10' or 12' wide, however some are larger. Larger driveway gates are often installed because a vehicle will not or cannot pull in straight; vehicles will be turning as they drive through the gate opening. This is especially important for vehicles pulling trailers and boats.

Semi-Annual Traffic: Frequently our customers have wanted larger gates for the septic tank truck or to be prepared in case they need to get a backhoe in for repair. This is excellent forethought, however a large gate can be unnecessary and add extra cost to your project. In such instances where a gate only needs accessed a couple times a year, consider installing 2-3 removable sections of fence. This can be done at a modest cost and it is not any more laborious than installing the fence to begin with. There is more than one way to do this, the method is dependent on the style of fence being installed. For aluminum and vinyl fence, it is frequently done by cementing sleeves in the ground flush with grade in lieu of the posts. These sleeves, which can be made from galvanized steel, aluminum, or treated lumber, are approx. 18" long. They are slightly larger than the fence posts so that the fence posts can slide into them. Shim post(s) if necessary. Once fence post sleeves are cemented in the ground, install the fence as usual only for one or two posts, slide these into the sleeves versus cementing in ground. To remove section of fence, remove the horizontal rails, remove section fence, and remove post.

To sum, gates are the only part of the fence which move. They are also the only part of the fence which tends to get abused. Years of experience have taught us that the smaller the gate - the better. Smaller gates will last longer, be less finicky years later, and cheaper to replace should they ever fail or get damaged. As far as expense is concerned, in many case it makes very little difference. For example, if you need 10' of fence with a man gate, you can order 7' of fence with a 3' gate or 6' of fence and a 4' gate - the net result is you need to cover 10'; you can install less gate and more fence or vice versus. Aluminum and vinyl fence sections are sold in sections, 6', 7-1/2', and 8' wide depending on style. Plan locations and widths of gates to eliminate waste and cutting sections down to size.

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Special width and height gates are available. We need the exact opening size in order to build it correctly. We also need to know whether it will mount on columns or posts. To calculate the cost of a custom width gate, use the price of the next widest gate and add $85. For custom heights, take the price for the next height gate and add $125.00. These costs are cumulative so a 54" x 45" special gate would cost $210 more than a 60" x 48" gate. Not all manufacturer's pricing use this formula. If you need a custom size gate, it is always best to call for a price first before ordering.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: Yes, heavier posts are needed to both support the weight of the gate and to withstand the constant impact when the gate latches.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: The size of the gate will determine the proper size posts to use. See the pages for the style you are interested in for specifics. 4" sq. and 6" sq. posts are not punched to accept the horizontal rails of the fence; instead wall mount brackets are necessary to connect the fence section to these posts.
 

Fence Type	4" Posts needed if gate is:
Residential Styles with single pickets	Over 24 square feet
Residential Styles with double pickets	Over 18 sq. ft.
Ovation Styles	Over 5' in width
Regency or Regency Plus Styles	Over 16 sq. ft.
Fence Type	6" Posts needed if gate is:
Industrial Styles	over 47 sq. ft.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: The pickets are attached with screws; this allows each section to 'rack' or 'rake' out of square to naturally conform to the grade changes. This will allow one to install the horizontal rails parallel with grade and have plumb posts and pickets. Consult the style you are interested in for the amount of 'rake'. Most styles will rake 12" per 6' span. For steeper grade changes, you may step the fence. Rails would be installed level. You may need longer posts to do so. End posts would be used and either wall mount brackets for the other section or we can have a specially punched post made. Another option is to have the rails double punched. The rails have holes where the pickets slide through. The sections are restricted as to how much they can rack because of the size of this hole. We can have the rails on a section double punched so that you may rake the fence further. Most styles will rake up to 3' per 6' span with double punched sections. The holes will be approx. twice as wide to allow for the raking. There is a per section charge for double punched rails. Order only the quantity of panels necessary for the slope and the rest standard.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: For Jerith Fences: The maximum distance between columns is the standard post spacing multiplied by the number of sections between the columns minus the width of one post. For example, if you want to space your columns so that three residential sections fit between them, take 3 times the post spacing of 72-1/2" minus one 2" post:
(3 x 72.5") - 2" = 215.5" or 17' 11-1/2" between columns

For Industrial fence this opening would need to be:
(3 x 71.5") - 2.5" = 212" or 17'-8"

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum fence.

Reply: It is not unusual to have an angle other than a 90 degree corner. You can use a corner post or a line post, depending on the angle. Basically, anything wider than 90 degrees, use a line post. Less than 90 degrees, use a corner post.

For the purposes of the online ornamental fence calculator, any angle must be entered as a corner post. The reason is that each line up to that angle must be entered in order for sections and line posts to be calculated properly. Each of the angled posts will be listed in the material list as a corner, but in reality, line posts must be substituted for those particular posts where appropriate.

To better understand the use of a line post versus a corner post, study the drawing below. Each of these must be entered in the calculator as a corner post, even though you intend to change it when ordering. If in doubt, you can always order a blank post (one with no holes) or an end post with the intention of cutting the other holes on the job, when you can better assess which is best.


Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum gates.

Reply: All our ornamental aluminum gates are built on order to specifications. We do feature a standard products line online. Many of these gates may be customized in different heights, widths, and with additional scrolls. Special order gates require additional charges.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of ornamental aluminum gates and fence.

Reply: We have a few scroll options for most styles and grades of aluminum fence and gates. We also carry a few gates which already have scrolls and extra ornamentation. Jerith scrolls are installed in the field with screws. Ideal scrolls are normally installed at the factory.

Updated 05/31/06

Applicable Products: All styles of fence.

Reply: It is not abnormal to find a protruding foundation footer, drainage pipe, or other obstruction next to a house or building. There are many ways to go about setting this post in concrete and keeping the post tight to the building. We have resorted to many methods, including welding and building special posts for these applications. When fence posts are made of steel, aluminum, vinyl or other bendable materials, simply bend the post to miss the obstruction. You will need to dig the hole to the proper depth regardless. Usually the post is bent to miss the obstruction and into the alternate hole.
 

Avoiding Obstacles with Fence Posts

Click Images to Enlarge Fig. 1 demonstrates a typical fence post hole, nearly clear of all obstacles. A power auger will take care of any small roots. Larger roots will need cut with a spud bar and cleaned with post hole diggers. Fig. 2 demonstrates the problem of finding an obstruction near the house foundation. Fortunately, most holes near a building are dug by hand so this drainage pipe was found without damaging it. Once an obstruction is found, dig a hole to the side of it to normal depth (Fig. 3). Measure down from grade to determine where to bend the post (Fig. 4). Most residential posts bend easily. Vices, truck racks, hitch receivers, and even forks in tree branches have been used on jobsites to bend posts. Heavier duty posts may require cutting a notch into the post to help start the bend. Bend only slightly, test, the fit and bend more if necessary until you have the perfect fit (Fig. 5). Hold post in place while filling the post hole with concrete. With a properly bent post, you can achieve a tight fit between a building and the post as shown (Fig. 6).

Updated 05/31/06